Transcription of 31 July 2016 – “What Gods?”

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    Me:  Jehovah Jirah, our Provider, Our Creator, Our Lord and Our Savior, we give YOU Praise and Worship. Lord, Bless this Chat and Guide it to a better understanding or each other and of YOU. Be with us Lord and if any need healing in Body, Mind, or Soul, please Touch them Lord and Heal them. Amen(8:20PM)
    Bruce1:  Amen(8:21PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Amen(8:21PM)
    arrowLX:  any Hot Topic tonight?(8:37PM)
    arrowLX:  or just general chat(8:37PM)
    Me:  General Chat unless someone has a Topic they want to discuss(8:42PM)
    Me:  I thought the Church of England had made a new ruling on Gay Marriage but I can not find it(8:43PM)
    arrowLX:¬†¬†the Anglican Church of Canada did……….(8:45PM)
    Me:  The Anglican Communion is the gathering of Anglican and Episcopal churches from around the world. Today, the Anglican Communion comprises more than 80 million members in 44 regional and national member churches in more than 160 countries. The Episcopal church is part of the Anglican Communion, and is comprised of 109 dioceses in 16 nations. At the head of the Anglican Communion is the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. The Episcopal church, established shortly after the American Revolution, has its roots in the Anglican Church. The Anglican Church, known as the Church of England, had a strong following in colonial America. But when the colonies won their independence, the majority of America’s Anglican clergy refused to swear allegiance to the British monarch as was required. As a result, the Episcopal Church was formed. The vibrancy of the Anglican Communion reflects the lives of its congregants and their commitment to God’s mission in the world.(8:53PM)
    arrowLX:  right(8:54PM)
    Me:  So My question is, who is the head of the Anglican Communion, Archbishop of Canterbury, justin Welby OR the Queen?(8:56PM)
    arrowLX:  the A of C(8:57PM)
    arrowLX:  the Queen is the titular secular head of the British Commonwealth(8:58PM)
    arrowLX:  nothing to do with the Church as uch(8:59PM)
    arrowLX:  such(8:59PM)
    Me:  Among Protestants, we say that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church. the Romans say the Pope is because Jesua gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. I wonder if G-d knows who is really in charge?(9:01PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  The British monarch is the titular head of the church but real power rests with the Archbishop of Canterbury(9:01PM)
    arrowLX:  He is!(9:02PM)
    arrowLX:  Anglicans are Protestants(9:02PM)
    arrowLX:  and Christ is the head, the A of C is his repreentative(9:04PM)
    arrowLX:  He doesnt have the power the Pope has over the Catholic Church(9:05PM)
    Me:  I know, that was one of the stumbling blocks in the Class at the Senior Center for me. The Lecturer kept talking about the Reformation and I suddenly realized he was not talking about Luthers Reformation.(9:05PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  As would be the case in the RC church Christ is the head of the church and the Pope is his vicar or representative(9:06PM)
    arrowLX:  similiar idea(9:07PM)
    Me:  Are you familiar with one of the newest Reformations, the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints? Their headquarters is in St Joseph, Missouri just outside Kansas City, Missouri(9:08PM)
    arrowLX:  the Catholics had a Counter-Reformation at the time(9:08PM)
    arrowLX:  what did they do, denounce their founder?(9:09PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  As for the Episcopal church it was founded by Celtics, then through the labors of Augustine of Canterbury brought into the RC church which is has an uneasy relationship with until the final break under Henry VIII(9:10PM)
    arrowLX:  Celtics = Wales(9:11PM)
    Me:  The Reformation is the movement in history, beginning in 1517, which broke up the institutional unity of the church in Western Europe and established the third great branch of Christianity, called Protestantism, which was and is centered on the absolute and sufficient authority of the Bible and on justification by faith alone.(9:12PM)
    Me:¬†¬†Reformers This term refers to the leaders of the revolt against Catholicism. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Knox, Bucer, Cranmer, and others would merit this title, as would Anabaptists such as Menno Simons Protestant Any member of the original group that protested against the Catholic Church and actually separated from it, and any member of that group of churches or their modern descendants. The term was first used in 1529 when a group of German noblemen protested at the Diet of Speyer. Lutheran A member of the churches that descend from Luthers original followers Reformed A member of the churches that descend from the non-Lutheran Protestants such as Knox, Calvin, Bucer. Magisterial Reformers The Reformers who believed that the civil magistrate should enforce the correct religion. There was no difference on this point between the magisterial Reformers and the Roman Catholics. Anabaptist A member of the radical Reformation – those who went beyond the…(9:12PM)
    Me:¬†¬†… magisterial reformers and restricted baptism to adult believers. This also implied that not everyone was expected to be a Christian. Therefore the government was out of the picture and should not be used by Christians to impose the true religion on others. Nor should Christians participate in civil government.(9:12PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Yes I have relatives who are members of it. It dates back to the 1850s and is made up of the direct descendants of Joseph Smith. They opposed polgamy and all heads of the church are directly related to the prophet(9:13PM)
    Me:  brb(9:13PM)
    arrowLX:  Knox founded the Presbyterians(9:15PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  My church is part of a reform movement against the RC Church going back to 1722(9:18PM)
    arrowLX:  Larry, look up the Counter-Reformation please(9:19PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Counter reformation was an attempt to do damage control after the departure of Luther and his followers and masses of people started following him(9:22PM)
    Me:¬†¬†The Counter-Reformation (Latin: Contrareformatio), also called the Catholic Reformation (Latin: Reformatio Catholica) or the Catholic Revival,[1] was the period of Catholic resurgence initiated in response to the Protestant Reformation, beginning with the Council of Trent (1545‚Äď1563) and ending at the close of the Thirty Years War (1648). The Counter-Reformation was a comprehensive effort composed of four major elements: Ecclesiastical or structural reconfiguration Religious orders Spiritual movements Political dimensions Such reforms included the foundation of seminaries for the proper training of priests in the spiritual life and the theological traditions of the Church, the reform of religious life by returning orders to their spiritual foundations, and new spiritual movements focusing on the devotional life and a personal relationship with Christ, including the Spanish mystics and the French school of spirituality. It also involved political activities that…(9:24PM)
    Me:¬†¬†… included the Roman Inquisition. One primary emphasis of the Counter-Reformation was a mission to reach parts of the world that had been colonized as predominantly Catholic and also try to reconvert areas such as Sweden and England that were at one time Catholic, but had been Protestantized during the Reformation.[2](9:24PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  It tried to clean up its act and address some of the issues raised by Luther and make the case for Catholicism and the Pope being the true church based on Peter who Jesus founded his church upon(9:24PM)
    arrowLX:  did they end indulgences then?(9:26PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Not sure(9:27PM)
    arrowLX:  ok(9:27PM)
    Me:  However, Allan, as Bro and Bruce may remember, I do not believe that the Reformation started in 1500. I believe the Reformation actually started in 300 AD when the Roman Catholic Church split off from the original Jewish Sect called the Christians and started following a bastardized religion created by Constatine(9:27PM)
    arrowLX:  different reformation(9:28PM)
    Me:  the original Christian Church had no buildings, they met in peoples homes, they had Heads of Families as leaders, both male and female(9:30PM)
    arrowLX:  for many of the early popes, the big thing was power, there were even many popes at once at times(9:30PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  A part of the Counter reformation was and attempt to weaken the power of the pope and make the church be governed by councils as the original church was before Rome got a big head and decided the Pope alone was the head of the church and everyone had to submit to him and the other churches said no and thus the split between east and west(9:31PM)
    Me:  and they took care of each other. The leaders like Paul and Peter were not paid by the church for their services, they had jobs they worked besides being preachers(9:31PM)
    arrowLX:  the Orthodox divisions(9:32PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Yes Allen(9:32PM)
    arrowLX:  Paul was a tent-maker, but he was supported by the parishioners of the churches he founded(9:33PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Originally there were 5 Bishops all of who were equal. They represented Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome, Alexandria and other one that skips my mind at the moment(9:35PM)
    arrowLX:  Peter kept his fishing job(9:35PM)
    Me:  At the time of the English split, the Roman Rulers still ruled most of Greece, the Pope ruled a section of Italy in the middle near Rome, the southern tip of Italy was under another Ruler, and the Northern yet another, which is why none of them were speaking Latin. Latin was the language of the Latin people, not the italian people. Germany was independent as was Spain and France. and England was ruled by the monarch(9:37PM)
    Bruce1:  athens?(9:38PM)
    arrowLX:  Corinth?(9:38PM)
    Me:  .Athens was in the Islands of Greece. Corinth was in the land mass we not call Turkey(9:38PM)
    Me:  NOW call(9:39PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  They would meet in Church councils with their representatives to discuss issues affecting the church and work together towards a consensus. Each bishop had one vote. Rome was given the honorary title of first among equals but was never over any of the other churches(9:39PM)
    Bruce1:  Antioch is alo in what we now call turkey(9:40PM)
    Me:  Actually Rome was not given that title until much later after it split with the Greek(9:40PM)
    Bruce1:  also(9:40PM)
    Bruce1:  corinth is greece(9:42PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  No had it from the first centuries of the church but it was only when Rome took the title literally and try to exert control over the other churches that rebellion broke out and separation took place(9:43PM)
    Me:  History of Christianity From 301 to 600 CE The history of the primitive Christian movements (30 to 300 CE) is described in a separate essay. horizontal rule Background: During the Ante-Nicene Era (about 170 to 325 CE) many religious movements were active in the Roman Empire: Christianity, Greek Pagan religion, Judaism, Mithraism, Roman Pagan religion, various secret mystery religions, etc. Religious tolerance was widespread throughout the empire, but it was only granted to those adults who had fulfilled their civic duties. Many points of conflict developed between the Roman authorities and the growing Christian movement, including:(9:43PM)
    Me:  I wanted to list each of these separately so we could actually read them together(9:44PM)
    Me:  As part of ones civic duty, each adult was expected to sponsor a sacrifice in the Roman temple once per year. Many Christians refused to do this because it would force them to acknowledge the legitimacy of Pagan Gods.(9:44PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  ok(9:44PM)
    arrowLX:  ok(9:44PM)
    Me:  Adults were expected to acknowledge Caesar as the Son of God and Savior. Many Christians would not submit to this either.(9:44PM)
    Me:  Christians ignored some Roman laws. For example, the state refused to recognize marriages between a free person and a slave; Christians allowed such marriages.(9:45PM)
    Me:  A small minority of Christians were so keen on hastening the end of the world and the arrival of the Kingdom of God that they set fires to encourage the second coming of Jesus. Some Roman authorities labeled the entire Christian movement as a bunch of arsonists.(9:45PM)
    arrowLX:  one reason for the persecution(9:45PM)
    Me:  Lies spread that Christians engaged in orgies during their communal means and made human sacrifices of infants. As a result of these conflicts, Christians were intermittently persecuted in various parts of the Empire.(9:46PM)
    arrowLX:  they were blamed for the burning of Rome(9:46PM)
    Me:  301 CE: Armenian tradition states that Gregory the Illuminator (c. 257 Рc. 337) persuaded the King T’rdat III, the king of Armenia, to convert to Christianity. The king then made Armenia the first country to adopt Christianity as its state religion. Some sources say that this happened in 311 CE. The Roman Empire itself did not officially adopt Christianity until 380 CE, under the Emperor Theodosis.(9:47PM)
    Me:  313 CE: The years of Christian persecution came to an end. Emperor Constantine (289-337 CE) issued the Edict of Milan which formally established freedom and toleration for all religions, including Christianity. Contrary to many peoples beliefs, Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire at this time. That happened later in that century.(9:47PM)
    Me:¬†¬†325 CE: The period of time from 325 to about 590 CE is often referred to as the post-Nicene era. This interval takes its name from the church Council of Nicea which was held in 325 CE. There was no single individual who spoke for the entire church; no one person had the authority to decide matters of belief and practice. Such matters could only be determined by councils at which all available bishops would debate and attempt to resolve their differences. The first such meeting was the Council of Nicea in Asia Minor (now Turkey). 318 bishops out of the approximately 1,800 Christian bishops then in existence attended. Most came from the eastern half of the Empire. 5 Bishops attempted to resolve a major uncertainty facing the early church: the relationship between Jesus and God. The church recognized the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) which described God in strictly monotheistic terms. But there were references in the Gospels (particularly John) which implied that Jesus was divine….(9:48PM)
    arrowLX:  grrrrr CE(9:48PM)
    Me:¬†¬†… Two conflicting theories about the deity of Jesus were argued at the time:(9:48PM)
    Me:  CE = Common Era(9:48PM)
    arrowLX:  an attempt to eliminate God from the common language(9:49PM)
    Me:  well, also because we do have Jewish Calendars, Chinese Calendars, and Our Calendars(9:49PM)
    arrowLX:  they want to eliminate BC and AD in an attempt to ignore the importance of God in our society(9:50PM)
    Bruce1:  Good(9:50PM)
    Me:  Arius (250 Р336 CE) proposed that Jesus and God were very separate and different entities: Jesus was closer to God than any other human being, but he was born a man, had no prior existence, and was not a god. On the other hand, God has been in existence forever. Arius felt that any attempt to recognize the deity of Christ would blur the lines between Christianity and the Pagan religions. If Christianity recognized two separate gods, the Father and Jesus, it would become a polytheistic religion. bullet Athanasius (296 Р373 CE) argued that Jesus must be divine, because otherwise, he could not be the Savior. The atonement would not have been possible.(9:50PM)
    arrowLX:  I refuse to go along with it !(9:50PM)
    Me:  well, I am copying and posting and I am posting what the source is using(9:51PM)
    arrowLX:  there were many warnings in the Bible about false doctrines(9:52PM)
    Me:  But let me repeat those two stands separately. that last line of the first one is Very important(9:52PM)
    arrowLX:  understood Larry, Im just commenting(9:52PM)
    Me:  Arius (250 Р336 CE) proposed that Jesus and God were very separate and different entities: Jesus was closer to God than any other human being, but he was born a man, had no prior existence, and was not a god. On the other hand, God has been in existence forever. Arius felt that any attempt to recognize the deity of Christ would blur the lines between Christianity and the Pagan religions. If Christianity recognized two separate gods, the Father and Jesus, it would become a polytheistic religion.(9:52PM)
    Bruce1:  refuse to go along with what?(9:53PM)
    arrowLX:  CE and BCE, I hate it(9:53PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Ariius views are held by the Jehovahs Witnesses(9:54PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  of today(9:54PM)
    arrowLX:  right Bro L(9:54PM)
    Me:  Actually, Allan, you may not realize it but the Before Christ Era and Christ Era are set at Zero. The Before Christ is set at 7 BCE and the After Death is set at 33 CE so we have a 40 year gap that is not explained by BC and AD(9:56PM)
    arrowLX:  not to me(9:57PM)
    arrowLX:  AD is after Christs birth, whenever it was (between 4 & 7 BC generally)(9:58PM)
    Bruce1:  i never understood before christ and the year of aour loes anno domini they never made sense when you consider all time. comes fom the Father since the beginning of time.(9:58PM)
    Me:  and NO, Arius was a Man, a Bishop on one of the Churches. It has nothing to do with the Aryans who invaded India out of China(9:58PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Year of our Lord(9:59PM)
    arrowLX:  the timeline doesnt bother me just taking God out of the picture(9:59PM)
    Bruce1:  God created time he will always be in the picture(10:00PM)
    Me:  Yes, Bro, which is why, the Jehovahs Witness translation of John 1:1 is In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A God(10:01PM)
    arrowLX:  Bruce it was meant to show the importance of Christs birth in human history(10:01PM)
    Bruce1:  they cant even agree what year he was born(10:01PM)
    arrowLX:  a blatant rewriting of the original(10:02PM)
    Me:  which goes back to my original question a few weeks back of How Many Gods do you Worship?(10:02PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Correct Dad(10:02PM)
    arrowLX:  hard to really tell Bruce, we werent there at the time (Smiley)(10:02PM)
    Bruce1:  i know(10:02PM)
    Bruce1:  but God was (Smiley)(10:03PM)
    arrowLX:  the Bible clearly supports the idea of the Trinity(10:03PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Most scholars now believe he was born in 4 BC(10:04PM)
    Bruce1:  allan is the trinity thee God three Gods in one?(10:04PM)
    arrowLX:¬†¬†well, He would know when His Son was born……..(10:04PM)
    Bruce1:  or(10:04PM)
    Me:  and In HOT TOPICS we Acknowledge that NO opinion is the Correct one, they are all correct, just different ways of looking at things(10:04PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  and killed in 30(10:04PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  ce(10:04PM)
    arrowLX:  three forms of one God(10:04PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Or AD to make Allen happy(10:05PM)
    arrowLX:  hehe(10:05PM)
    arrowLX:  understood Larry(10:05PM)
    arrowLX:  but I will never acknowledge CE and BCE(10:06PM)
    Me:  one of my favorite memories of having a Bible Discussion with a Young Jehovah Witness was his saying You have to remember, not all Bibles are correctly translated(10:06PM)
    arrowLX:  hehe(10:07PM)
    arrowLX:  just ask them one question(10:08PM)
    Me:  that was right after he had read a passage from Isaiah from his own Bible(10:08PM)
    arrowLX:  Do you know if youd go to heaven if you died right now?(10:08PM)
    arrowLX:  Witnesses do not have that assurance(10:09PM)
    Me:  and when I pointed out to him that it WAS HIS bible he had read from and had said it was not correctly translated, he stopped the Bible Study and would not talk to me after that(10:09PM)
    arrowLX:  hehe, thats how they work(10:10PM)
    Me:  Athanasius (296 Р373 CE) argued that Jesus must be divine, because otherwise, he could not be the Savior. The atonement would not have been possible.(10:10PM)
    Me:  Does the name Athanasius mean anything to any of you?(10:11PM)
    arrowLX:  the Witnesses were formed after Charles Russel incorrectly predicted the date of the end of the world(10:11PM)
    Bruce1:  no(10:12PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  No according to them only 144,000 will go to heaven and the rest will remain here on earth for eternity being ruled by the 144,000(10:12PM)
    arrowLX:  heard the name, thats all(10:12PM)
    Me:¬†¬†Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith. Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally. Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal. What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet there…(10:13PM)
    Me:¬†¬†… are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.(10:13PM)
    Me:  This creed is named after Athanasius (A.D. 293-373), the champion of orthodoxy against Arian attacks on the doctrine of the trinity. Although Athanasius did not write this creed and it is improperly named after him, the name persists because until the seventeenth century it was commonly ascribed to him. It is not from Greek (Eastern), but from Latin (Western) origin, and is not recognized by the Eastern Orthodox Church today. Apart from the opening and closing sentences, this creed consists of two parts, the first setting forth the orthodox doctrine of the trinity, and the second dealing chiefly with the incarnation and the two-natures doctrine. The translation above was adopted by the CRC Synod of 1988. Related Resources Faith Alive publishes a variety of Athanasian Creed resources including print copies, study materials, and more.(10:13PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  They have had 7 missed prophicies on the second coming and the events surrounding that event(10:14PM)
    arrowLX:  yes(10:14PM)
    Me:  The Christian Reformed Church(10:15PM)
    Me:  Creeds Apostles Creed Athanasian Creed Nicene Creed(10:15PM)
    Me:  In the Lutheran Church, the Nicene Creed was said at all Communion Services, the Apostles Creed at any service that did not include Communion, and Once a Year we would say or Read rather, the Athanasian Creed which is very long(10:17PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  The only time it is ever used is on Trinity Sunday otherwise the Nicene Creed is used every Sunday(10:17PM)
    Me:¬†¬†That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal. What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being. So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings; there is but one uncreated and…(10:18PM)
    Me:¬†¬†… immeasurable being.(10:19PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  The Apostles Creed is repeated once a year when we renew our baptismal vows at Easter(10:19PM)
    arrowLX:  we use it on non-communion Sundays(10:20PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  It is repeated every Sundsy in the Methodist, Congregationalist and other liberal churches(10:21PM)
    Me:  I like this creed because it reflects the original belief of the Christian Jewish Church unlike the Nicene creed which was influenced by Constatine who demanded that certain changes had to be in it to relate it to his own religion(10:22PM)
    Me:  Constatine was a poly god believer and that is why the three parts make God sound like three gods(10:23PM)
    Bruce1:  brb(10:23PM)
    arrowLX:  they are not terribly different(10:24PM)
    Me:  The next part of the Athenasian Creed is as follows(10:24PM)
    Me:  Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings; there is but one almighty being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God. Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords; there is but one Lord.(10:24PM)
    Me:  Just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords. The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.(10:25PM)
    arrowLX:  sounds like a catechism(10:26PM)
    Me:  Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other. So in everything, as was said earlier, we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.(10:26PM)
    Me:  Anyone then who desires to be saved should think thus about the trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that one also believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.(10:26PM)
    Me:  Now this is the true faith: That we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, Gods Son, is both God and human, equally. He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity. Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by Gods taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.(10:27PM)
    Me:  For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human. He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Fathers right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire. This is the catholic faith: one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.(10:27PM)
    arrowLX:¬†¬†problem with that……(10:29PM)
    Me:  IS?(10:29PM)
    arrowLX:  last two lines(10:29PM)
    Me:  small c so catholic means universal(10:30PM)
    arrowLX:  that is salvation by works, which the Bible denounces(10:30PM)
    arrowLX:  no above that(10:30PM)
    arrowLX:  you dont get eternal life by doing good(10:31PM)
    arrowLX:  or hell just by doing evil(10:31PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Good works are the proof that we are saved(10:32PM)
    arrowLX:  eg the thief on the cross(10:32PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  No good words no salvation according to James(10:32PM)
    arrowLX:  yes, not what makes us saved(10:32PM)
    Me:  dont forget, earlier in the Creed it said Anyone then who desires to be saved should think thus about the trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that one also believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.(10:33PM)
    Me:  So it actually says you must have Faith and good works to be saved(10:34PM)
    arrowLX:  yes, not works, as in the last two lines(10:35PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  We believe salvation comes through belief in Jesus and his sacrifice for us as evidenced by good works(10:35PM)
    arrowLX:  good works may indicate salvation, but they dont cause it(10:36PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Cant have one without the other(10:36PM)
    Me:  I believe someone once said Faith without Works is Death(10:36PM)
    arrowLX:  many evil people have been saved by accepting Christ on their deathbeds(10:36PM)
    arrowLX:  one comes first not both(10:37PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  James(10:37PM)
    arrowLX:  my opinion, biblically(10:37PM)
    Bruce1:  hopefully saved you mean Allan. there is no proof one way or the other you just take it on Faith(10:37PM)
    arrowLX:  yes James tried to link the two, but again one proves the other(10:38PM)
    Me:¬†¬†James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV) Faith Without Works Is Dead 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, ‚ÄúDepart in peace, be warmed and filled,‚ÄĚ but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, ‚ÄúYou have faith, and I have works.‚ÄĚ Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe‚ÄĒand tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the…(10:38PM)
    Me:¬†¬†… Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‚ÄúAbraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.‚ÄĚ[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.(10:38PM)
    arrowLX:  works comes from faith(10:40PM)
    arrowLX:  no works, your faith can be doubted, but again, deathbed conversions do occur(10:41PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  As I said earlier works are the proof of my faith in Jesus(10:41PM)
    Me:  once again, I remind you, Your opinion is not wrong, it is only different from(10:41PM)
    arrowLX:¬†¬†one could say accepting Christ is an act of works, but then again……….(10:41PM)
    arrowLX:  true Bro L(10:42PM)
    Me:  this is HOT TOPICS and NO opinion is wrong, we are here to discuss, not to argue right or wrong, that is for GOD to decide(10:42PM)
    arrowLX:  true Larry(10:42PM)
    arrowLX:  still it is interesting, because the Bible has different inights into the way of salvation(10:45PM)
    Me:  Do you know how hard it is for me to say that rather than to say someone who has a different opinion from mine is wrong. But on the other hand, it allows me to be what is called the Devils Advocate and bring up points whether I actually agree with them or not, if they will allow discussion(10:45PM)
    Me:  It also allows Bruce who has studied a variety of religions and was not brought up in any one of them a chance to expand his own faith(10:46PM)
    Bruce1:  Devils Dad Advocate (Smiley) has a certain charm to it(10:46PM)
    arrowLX:  you have James comment, as well as the passage :the just shall live by faith, not of works, lest any man should boast(10:47PM)
    arrowLX:  you can have works without faith, which may lead certain men to boast(10:48PM)
    arrowLX:  hint hint(10:48PM)
    Me:  Yes and supposedly, who was this James we are quoting?(10:48PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  That is Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9(10:49PM)
    arrowLX:¬†¬†the apostle who wrote the book…..Jesus half-brother?(10:50PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  Almost 9pm here(10:50PM)
    arrowLX:  right(10:50PM)
    Me:  Supposedly, this was the half brother of Jesus who took over the leadership of the Early Christians in Jerusalem after Jesus ascended.(10:50PM)
    Brotherlawrence:  We have been at this almost 3 hours(10:50PM)
    arrowLX:  time for my tea(10:50PM)
    arrowLX:  thanks for a very interesting, and enlightening, discussion(10:51PM)
    Bruce1:  yes thank you(10:51PM)
    Me:  I have a question for all of you. Shall I post this to the HOT TOPICS Forum for others to read?(10:52PM)
    arrowLX:  see you tomorrow everyone, good night and God bless(10:52PM)
    arrowLX:  see you tomorrow Bruce (Smiley)(10:52PM)
    Me:  and would you like to pick up next week?(10:52PM)
    Bruce1:  yes(10:52PM)
    arrowLX:  sure, there is more to delve into on this topic(10:53PM)
    Me:  Okay, then I will let each of you leave and I will copy and post it. Good night to each of You and May God Eternal Bless and Keep YOU + (10:54PM)

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